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Sweden Carl-Johan Ryner's blog« See all C-J's blogs

The end
22 Aug 2009 at 14:40 | Posted in: General | Views: 6187 | Comments: 13
Having enjoyed my best golf play the last couple of years during the team competition here in Odense, I got my first experience with the now not so new match play finals. I've been very negative towards this system before. The first of two main reason is that removing half the lanes for the individual competition is not fair to the players that are good on the other half of the lanes. The second reasoning is that two or three bad shots could destroy months of preparations even if you have a commanding lead going in to the finals.
Both of these reasons came in to effect in my loss to Allan Schwab this morning. I was 38 shots better that Allan during the team competition but during our match we played equal in shots (and lanes won) on the felt and he won one lane on a badly played eternite. He played really good felt and while I made two 2s (boxes, won and twin gate, lost) and one 3 (hole in a slope, lost) and aced the rest, it wasn't enough since my three best lanes weren't selected for the finals.
I will stop this post now as I probably won't say anything good at all. One question though. The players ranked 1, 2, 4 and 5 didn't make it through the 2nd round and in all likelyhood all of these would have been in the super final in the old system. Is that the way to get a champion?
I have now played one match play final, I doubt there will be another.

previous comments    next comments
Comments (13)

Italy Stefano (Stefano Morello) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 21:12
@ PLS

Time is an important matter to have a better show for visitors.

4-5 minutes for the first shot? Well, you was lucky :-D
If my brain still work in Vaasa there was just a warning for violation of time limit...it was for me...and trust my words when I say that I never exceed 30-40 seconds for a shot!

Someone was consuming 8-9 minutes for first shot at "fishbone", "cubes" and other hard lanes...

I think that there are two options:
a) people plays within time limit (otherwise a penalty point is given immediately)
b) time limit is removed from rules

Could be possible to study a system which integrates the actual software, Bangolf Arena when using mobile devices, with an option which count time spent by players on each lane? Well...at least an average between time spend and number of shots could be activated...

Referees, players and coaches could have a big help from that...

Denmark PLS (Peter  Sorensen) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 16:47
If WMF would really want to ... it would easily be possible to play a team competition of 2 days with 4 rounds every day. Which would leave 2 days for for individual play. Instruct the referee´s and the players that we play according to the rules. ( 1 min - one shot ). In Odense where spectators from Golf ... They didnt understand why players where playing so slow ... actually it wasent time spend on each stroke that was timeconsuming, it was the time spend from each course was ready for playing untill the player started playing.

In Odense 1996 we made the first effort to control time, with time referees on the courses. It helped, but now it seems everything out of control again.

I watched referees (not only one time) looking at players using more than 5 minutes for the first shot ... there where only 4 prewarnings for time given in the tournament ,, 2 of them was for coaches ...

Let me remind you that 20 years ago we could easily play 4 rounds in one day. The total number of players hasent increased ... We played with 9 players in the teams then ...

Sweden Hans (Hans Bergström) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 16:01
I think that two day team is enough.

Then one day finals of stroke play. Maybe already here continue with 54 best mens and 24 best women.

Play a double round with mass start. After this the 32 + 16 for the KO-finals are decided. But add another double round with 9 + 6 for the stroke final the same day.

Last day the KO-finals according to todays format 32+16.

Finland JJM (John Mittler) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 15:07
2 days team competition would probably give a more exciting final round than 3 days team competition, because the score differences would be smaller before the final rounds.

If we want spectators, we must build temporary minigolf courses to a shopping mall, or to a walking street in city center. It would mean a lot of noise from people, maybe music or advertisements heard from some shop, maybe the traffic making noise, a baby crying, no chance for a silent playing experience.

Austria bub74 (Markus Berger) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 14:45
serious matchplay is possible - but not if you take lanes like twin-gate or bridge and in total just 18 lanes. I see no reason, why we have to play 3 days team competiton with scores over 1000 and than play single matchplay with maybe less than 20 shots decididung who is No. 1! This is stupid!
2 days team competition is more than enough. Use 2 days for single competion in an improved style of matchplay.
and if we want to have spectators: we should play on Saturday and SUNDAY - instead of starting on Wednesday and play for 2 other working days!

  ( ) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 11:45
At this world championship I was 4th and C-J Ryner was 17th...wow...am I a so better player on felt than him?
I really don't think so...
I must admit that I was really sad Saturday morning when I saw that C-J had been eliminated. Nothing against Allan, which is a friend of mine, but it's not good that the tournament has lost his best player so early.
Of course I'm very happy for my 4th place, having beated some of the best european players during the matches, but I have to admit that I could compete with them on felt because the chosen lanes did not represent the real difficulties of this course.
I completely agree with C-J, it's not so good that a long preparation can be cancelled with just 2-3 bad shots during a match. If we have to mantain this KO system we should find some ways to save best players, for example taking the best 4 players directly to the 1/4 finals and let the others fight to get the other 4 places...

Denmark PLS (Peter  Sorensen) | Delete

24 Aug 2009 at 10:02
Due to the comments from the playhers on this topic, it seems that the players forgot that they are playing 2 tournaments in one. A team championship, where the players basicly are playing for the team. And after the Team Championship they are playing an individual championship, where you are finding the best minigolfplayer in matchplay. This is not the optimum, but it is what is possible due the financing of minigolf. I dont think there can be any doubt that the best matchplayer won the world championship.

I was watching the world Championship all playing days in Odense, and its clear to me that the players are aware that they are playing 2 different tournaments. As an example, the swedish team on course 17 on felt, played safe in the team competition and made 2, while in matchplay they played for 1.

The first 3 days of competion is a team competition and to use the results to more than a way to find out which off the 32 should play in the matchplay finals is a mistake. The conditions of the play are simply not the same.

When this is said, I must agree, that the courses the jury chose to be played in the matchplay was a very bad choice. Some off the courses was either to easy ( bridge on eternit ) or to difficult ( salto on eternit ). On felt the technical difficult courses was not choosen.


Finland Alex (Axel Ekman) | Delete

22 Aug 2009 at 19:35
Did you JJM notice, that Schwab would actually win 7-5 based on averages? So yeah, Schwab was statistically expected to win occasionally.

I rarely comment on this topic, because it seems quite inflammable. In this case though everyone seems to blatantly accuse the system of beeing random, when the probable result actually happened (It would be quite interesting to check the lane statistics or every pair just for kicks)? So could the problem then lie more in the way the lanes were selected?

If we take the top 8 players from the both courses we get the players in the KO rounds as follows:
EB: 8-6-4-2-1
Felt: 8-5-2-2-2

I mean it doesn't surprise me at all that half of the preliminary rounds top8 of the EB was in the top8 of the KO system, when clearly the easy lanes from felt were in and the hard ones from EB.

P.S. I would like to sate that I did ponder on the Södertälje-results as reference for a while, but came to the conclusion that the felt lanes were not as selective as these if I remember correctly.








Finland JJM (John Mittler) | Delete

22 Aug 2009 at 18:44
Crap talk aside, a mathematician (or sports betting agency) could easily give the statistical probabilities, how many % of matches C-J would win against some other opponent in Odense. Surely 100% of his matches against Japanese or Chinese players, and also 99% of matches against someone 50th in the ranking list.

But Schwab was statistically expected to win C-J at least in some matches, because the best F + E scores of Schwab were better than the worst F + E scores of C-J. Play a match between these two, and Schwab will win sooner or later. There is absolutely nothing what C-J or anyone else can do about it, not in this life on planet Earth. "Thinking differently" will not change the statistical fact that any player in top 32 will win C-J sooner or later.

Add to this the fact that the most difficult felt lanes were cut off, and any scores over 2 points were automatically forgiven, and ranking 32th has psychologically nothing to lose. So here you are.

There is a reason why snooker or pool has tens of frames, not only one short match, because they want to see some serious credibility in the competition results on top level. But we don't have time for that, and not really interest either.

Denmark swabbii (Allan Schwab) | Delete

22 Aug 2009 at 18:27
Hey Carl-Johan and thank you for a great experience. I will probably learn a lot from this match, but i must agree with you. The KO is not the right way to find a world champion!
I personally hope that in the future there will be either, just strokeplay or 2 world champions ( strokeplay and KO).
And well played here CJ! Always a pleasure to watch your game!
Allan
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